Hi Gang
I am aware of 2 new (imported) gliders having to be registered in the experimental category - Mitch Polinsky's 31 and my DG1001M. I truly don't think that is too much of a problem with single place gliders but is a problem with 2 place gliders because it excludes commercial usage. Reasons given by the manufacturers were costs of certification. So my question is is this now accepted standard practice?
For lighter gliders up to 1320lbs max weight we have a very viable option in the US and that is SLSA category. My Phoenix in in this category. As far as I understand it there are no real negatives but one perceived negative and that is the max VNE has to be 120 knots. Why? Only the FAA with its infinite wisdom knows why!
Dave

On Jun 10, 2:07*pm, kd6veb > wrote:
> Hi Gang
> * I am aware of 2 new (imported) gliders having to be registered in the experimental category - *Mitch Polinsky's 31 and my DG1001M. I truly don't think that is too much of a problem with single place gliders but is a problem with 2 place gliders because it excludes commercial usage. Reasons given by the manufacturers were costs of certification. So my question is is this now accepted standard practice?
> * For lighter gliders up to 1320lbs max weight we have a very viable option in the US and that is SLSA category. My Phoenix in in this category. As far as I understand it there are no real negatives but one perceived negative and that is the max VNE has to be 120 knots. Why? Only the FAA with its infinite wisdom knows why!
> Dave

Most new gliders are registered as experimental not just 2. ASG-29
does not have type certificate and there are 40 of them in the USA.
That is how my glider is registered as well.

On Monday, June 10, 2013 2:07:55 PM UTC-4, kd6veb wrote:

> For lighter gliders up to 1320lbs max weight we have a very viable option in the US and that is SLSA category. My Phoenix in in this category. As far as I understand it there are no real negatives but one perceived negative and that is the max VNE has to be 120 knots. Why? Only the FAA with its infinite wisdom knows why!
>

My principle credential for weighing in on this question is that I own a glider classified experimental with a VNE of 120 knots and I've given it some thought.

The manufacturers of LSA are regulated more lightly than the makers of other aircraft. I'd guess that at some point in history, experience told the regulators that the incidence of problems (like flutter) increased rapidly above 120 knots. Thus it would be reasonable to more lightly regulate the manufacturers of aircraft that had a VNE less than 120 knots.

Now that manufacturing technology has changed (and not necessarily for the better), the 120 knot may be too high or too low. Once upon a time, 120 knots made sense.

On Monday, June 10, 2013 2:07:55 PM UTC-4, kd6veb wrote:
> Hi Gang I am aware of 2 new (imported) gliders having to be registered in the experimental category - Mitch Polinsky's 31 and my DG1001M. I truly don't think that is too much of a problem with single place gliders but is a problem with 2 place gliders because it excludes commercial usage. Reasons given by the manufacturers were costs of certification. So my question is is this now accepted standard practice? For lighter gliders up to 1320lbs max weight we have a very viable option in the US and that is SLSA category. My Phoenix in in this category. As far as I understand it there are no real negatives but one perceived negative and that is the max VNE has to be 120 knots. Why? Only the FAA with its infinite wisdom knows why! Dave

I believe registration is the same. The airworthiness certificate is where the difference lies.
I would be curious as to what benefit you see in SLSA.
IIRC the 120 kts is consistent with powered aircraft licensed in the same catagory.
The theory the FAA was working under was that these are simpler, lighter, and most likely slower to match up with a different need than aircraft certified through the normal process.
Experimental works just fine for everything but 2 seaters used for hire. Those ships are all certified in EASA land so there is no big reason the couldn't be here. DG certainly could do it if they haven't.
FWIW UH

Many imports have an FAA issued Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) that will specify how the glider may be registered.
I believe the ASG-29 is a derivative of the -27 and would be listed under that TCDS.

Bill T

On Jun 10, 10:03*pm, Bill T > wrote:
> Many imports have an FAA issued Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) that will specify how the glider may be registered.
> I believe the ASG-29 is a derivative of the -27 and would be listed under that TCDS.
>
> Bill T

In 2010 I asked that question the answer was "No".

On Monday, June 10, 2013 11:07:55 AM UTC-7, kd6veb wrote:
> Hi Gang
>
> I am aware of 2 new (imported) gliders having to be registered in the experimental category - Mitch Polinsky's 31 and my DG1001M. I truly don't think that is too much of a problem with single place gliders but is a problem with 2 place gliders because it excludes commercial usage. Reasons given by the manufacturers were costs of certification. So my question is is this now accepted standard practice?
>
> For lighter gliders up to 1320lbs max weight we have a very viable option in the US and that is SLSA category. My Phoenix in in this category. As far as I understand it there are no real negatives but one perceived negative and that is the max VNE has to be 120 knots. Why? Only the FAA with its infinite wisdom knows why!
>
> Dave

Most all sailplanes that are in the experimental category are certified "air racing", the meat of the meal is in the limitations issued at the time of the certification. If the DAR is nice he will give you in the limitations an operating area of the continental United States. If he does not do this he will give you a practice area, usually a 300 mile radius from your home base then you will have to submit a Program letter each year. You send a Program Letter to your local FSDO informing them of where you plan to "race" this year and must be submitted every year, you can also just fax the FSDO any time of your intentions and do not need a reply from the FSDO. Of course some of us forget about all this and fly where ever and when ever we want, the sailplane knows no difference. If you have an sailplane in the Experimental category of "air racing" your limitations need to be with the Pink Ticket otherwise the airworthiness is invalid and you need to know what your limitations say.

> wrote:
> On Monday, June 10, 2013 11:07:55 AM UTC-7, kd6veb wrote:
>> Hi Gang
>>
>> I am aware of 2 new (imported) gliders having to be registered in the
>> experimental category - Mitch Polinsky's 31 and my DG1001M. I truly
>> don't think that is too much of a problem with single place gliders but
>> is a problem with 2 place gliders because it excludes commercial usage.
>> Reasons given by the manufacturers were costs of certification. So my
>> question is is this now accepted standard practice?
>>
>> For lighter gliders up to 1320lbs max weight we have a very viable
>> option in the US and that is SLSA category. My Phoenix in in this
>> category. As far as I understand it there are no real negatives but one
>> perceived negative and that is the max VNE has to be 120 knots. Why?
>> Only the FAA with its infinite wisdom knows why!
>>
>> Dave
>
> Most all sailplanes that are in the experimental category are certified
> "air racing", the meat of the meal is in the limitations issued at the
> time of the certification. If the DAR is nice he will give you in the
> limitations an operating area of the continental United States. If he
> does not do this he will give you a practice area, usually a 300 mile
> radius from your home base then you will have to submit a Program letter
> each year. You send a Program Letter to your local FSDO informing them of
> where you plan to "race" this year and must be submitted every year, you
> can also just fax the FSDO any time of your intentions and do not need a
> reply from the FSDO. Of course some of us forget about all this and fly
> where ever and when ever we want, the sailplane knows no difference. If
> you have an sailplane in the Experimental category of "air racing" your
> limitations need to be with the Pink Ticket otherwise the airworthiness
> is invalid and you need to know what your limitations say.

Pardon my ignorance here. If these gliders have an EASA TCDS, shouldn't
they then also be type certified in the US through reciprocity? I thought
that EASA and FAA Type Certificates were more or less equivalent?

Pete

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 5:21:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:

> Most all sailplanes that are in the experimental category are certified "air racing", the meat of the meal is in the limitations issued at the time of the certification. If the DAR is nice he will give you in the limitations an operating area of the continental United States. If he does not do this he will give you a practice area, usually a 300 mile radius from your home base then you will have to submit a Program letter each year.

I would add that I can legally fly my experimental glider in badge attempts and practice for badge attempts. Racing and race practice are allowed, but they are not required.

It is also possible to change the center of my 300 mile radius, but to do so the FAA wants to come to my airport and reinspect the glider based on current regulations. Due to budget cutbacks, the FAA guy could not get travel money this year, so we settled on a Program Letter that bases the glider at my local airport, 700 miles from the former owner's base of operations. I will try to do an identical Program Letter in 2014. That way I can avoid the possible repercussions of an overly zealous FAA inspection.

It's good to know this because the FAA guy did not know about the Practice for Badge Attempts loophole. I found that myself by reading the documents carefully.

On Jun 10, 2:07*pm, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
* I am aware of 2 new (imported) gliders having to be registered in the experimental category - *Mitch Polinsky's 31 and my DG1001M. I truly don't think that is too much of a problem with single place gliders but is a problem with 2 place gliders because it excludes commercial usage. Reasons given by the manufacturers were costs of certification. So my question is is this now accepted standard practice?
* For lighter gliders up to 1320lbs max weight we have a very viable option in the US and that is SLSA category. My Phoenix in in this category. As far as I understand it there are no real negatives but one perceived negative and that is the max VNE has to be 120 knots. Why? Only the FAA with its infinite wisdom knows why!
Dave

Most new gliders are registered as experimental not just 2. ASG-29
does not have type certificate and there are 40 of them in the USA.
That is how my glider is registered as well.

The ASG 29 does have a type certificate. It is an EASA one and I expect that it is just too much of a ball ache for someone to jump through the hoop required to get that accepted by the FAA. Gotta love that experimental category.

Here in NZ I had to go through type acceptance before the old LBA TC for Nimbus 3D I imported was accepted. At least here it wasn't too much of a drama

Just to clarify - The LSA max speed rule is not Vne. It is "maximum speed in level flight with maximum continuous power (Vh)—138 mph (120 knots) CAS."

There will be other complications in going LSA with a glider, but "Vh" probably won't be one of them...

14CFR 1.1 Definiton of LS aircraft, "Vne speed of 120kcas for a glider"
A glider does not have Vh, as it has no "power"

BillT

No you are wrong. For a LSA glider (motor glider or true glider) there
is a VNE limit of 120 knots. It is true for a non motor glider LSA
power plane there is a cruise or maximum power speed limit under power
of 120 knots and the VNE is without limitation. Ridiculous! But that's
the way the rules are written. A couple of years ago I pointed these
inconsistencies out to the FAA group who composed LSA rules. Their
response could best be described as "Oh **** we really don't want to
hear that".
Dave

Bill
You are wrong. A motor glider is considered by the FAA to be a
glider and the LSA rules apply equally to both powered and non power
gliders. Of course a motor glider has a VH and a non power glider does
not.
Dave

Is it really that hard to get an EASA certified glider type certified with the FAA? The type certificates that Transport Canada issues for EASA built and certified gliders look to be pretty much just the EASA documents approved under a reciprocal agreement. The ASH-31Mi for example already has a type certificate here. No certificate for the ASG-29, but then no one's imported one into Canada yet.

The DG1001 surprises me, since the USAF flies them too (although without engine I guess).
DG told me once that even the special wingtips (able to hold smokepods) were certified.

On Friday, June 14, 2013 5:53:31 AM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Jun 14, 2:39*am, wrote: > Is it really that hard to get an EASA certified glider type certified with the FAA? The type certificates that Transport Canada issues for EASA built and certified gliders look to be pretty much just the EASA documents approved under a reciprocal agreement. The ASH-31Mi for example already has a type certificate here. No certificate for the ASG-29, but then no one's imported one into Canada yet. Not true ASG-29 is certified in Canda as ASW-27-18.

This agrees with the German type certificate.
UH

> Not true ASG-29 is certified in Canda as ASW-27-18.

Oops. I should have realized that, especially given that an earlier post in the thread mentioned that's how the 29 is certified.

> Not true ASG-29 is certified in Canda as ASW-27-18.

Oops. I should have realized that, especially given that an earlier post in the thread mentioned that's how the 29 is certified here!